How to Stop Hating Money (with Hugh Massie)

Tired of feeling bad about the gravitational pull money has over every aspect of your existence? Well, so are we! That's why we're talking with local Money Energy Pioneer Hugh Massie, to gain a new perspective on the way we think about money. It's embracing risk, fighting for new opportunities, and the importance of changing your mindset to help your business succeed — all in this episode of Grandpa & Chill.

Thanks to our Amazing Guest: Hugh Massie
Website: DNA Behavior, Boys Without Fathers
YouTube:  @behaviorallysmart
LinkedIn: @hughmassie
Facebook: @hugh.massie
IG: @hughmassie

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Transcript

0:43

I'm Brandon Fox you're on another episode of Grandpa& Chill I'm here with my amazing co-host as always Phines Jackson. My grandfather is pretty good and our amazing producer Sierra Doss.

Our guest is: 0:56

Hugh Massie. Hey, Hugh, very happy to have you on. I know you just gave this appeal to everybody, but do it one more time for our audience. Yes. So, Brandon, one, I'm I'm very pleased to be here with you guys tonight and the business I have is DNA Behavior International. And you can tell from my accent I came a long way to do this podcast tonight all the way from Sydney, Australia, where I was born. But it's been a 20 year journey to to Atlanta, Georgia, the United States, to pursue my passion in life, which is to help people become more behaviorally conscious and money conscious as well. So, you know, I'm raising consciousness on about behavior and money and particularly how people build brand and a better relationship to money by addressing their behavior. Yeah, I feel like a lot of people are very emotional, right? The very Yeah. Yeah, they're very emotional with money. And I think the reality is most people don't understand what money is feeling. And money has a number of components or dimensions to it. You know, one, it's a currency. It's something that we all need to to, to have in our lives to, uh, you know, spend, invest, give, earn. That's, that's money is a currency, but it's also a mindset. It's also about our mindset. It's in our brain, it's related to our perspectives on life, but it's also in our energy fields. Money is somewhat always omnipresent, you know, it It's directly or indirectly in every conversation, in every thought. And I think that's, uh, that's the big issue for a lot of people that causes stress. Yeah, just that now you go, Grandpa actually. What were you going to say. Just going to say it's the medium of exchange and you know, there's been different types of medium of exchange over, over the years and in different countries. Yeah. You know, and one time I think what was it, tulips were considered the medium exchange and uh, and then they've, they've tried things bartering and I don't think that's worked out so well. But there was, I remember like ten, 20 years ago or maybe longer, a big deal about bartering. I haven't heard much about that recently. Yeah. And cryptocurrencies in there now, you know. And what, what becomes a replacement currency we don't know they may well be it they will be something because there's so much debt that's out there we might get a seismic economic event yet I think in our in our lifetimes to deal with which could could change a lot of things. The the amount of debt that the United States knows, this is just astronomical. It's around $30 trillion. You know, the the the debt plus the Fed owes like another I think it's seven, eight, 9,000,000,000,000 trillion. You're talking about. It's the interest on that on that money especially with interest keeps being pushed up by the Fed is just enormous. Half of what you're going to pay in taxes is going to end up just paying the interest debt. Yeah, and I think that's a it's a major structural issue that we seem to keep putting a bandaid over and wiping it, wiping it under the carpet or wiping away and not addressing and should have been addressed a long time ago and we probably wouldn't have the problem we're probably going to face if it had been. Well, part of the problem is it's not the only problem. There's a lot of problems. But part of the problem is that because of COVID, the U.S. borrowed a lot of money to help society, you know, regain its its footing. And and it's been compared to war. The the COVID situation. And back when we had the second World War, uh, uh, taxes went up as high as 91% on the wealthiest people in the country. Yeah. Now they don't pay the 91 and all of it. They pay it on, paid it on a certain amount over, let's say 200,000 a year. But now the I won't say which party but, but they actually lowered taxes for the wealthiest people instead of raising them when they really needed to. And nothing is changing in as far as that situation right now. So so we're we're strapped and it's all going to fall back on on the middle class I believe, on, you know, every years. It's a tremendous amount of debt right now. Yeah. And there's a lot of debt. There's a lot of problems. I think when you look at the the lower levels, people don't have enough money. Um, um, with such low savings rates. And then you look at the the other side, there's people with a lot of money and they've got other sets of problems um, as well. So they're not. And yeah, so it's a very interesting scenario wherein. Let me, let me ask you who your company or organization or background like you focus on the relationship of people with money but just to our audience now is it like um you have teachers that work there? Like what, what is the actual set up that you have? You know? Yeah, it's, yeah, that's a good question. So from a practical standpoint, if you went to our website at Disney, Viacom, you would see that there is that we have technology solutions. So we have, uh, like a behavioral discovery process that people can go through to learn about themselves, not only in terms of their identity, but also in terms of how they deal with money and make decisions. And that's that's through a structured scientific discovery process that we have. People can take do a trial there on the website. Not all the information about who's going to be made available then, because part of it, I suppose, which comes to your second question, Brandon, is around, you know, the consulting and coaching part. But we have a range. We we have a lot of financial advisors, for instance, and business coaches, life coaches that have been trained in our systems that help people navigate these paths and and then we have a lot of educational information as well. So that's, that's how the business, uh, the business works and I tend to train the other coaches and advisors in, in understanding all of this. I don't, I don't work with all the, the mums and dads and families out there because I can't, I'm only one person to do that. But we have a whole team that helps. Is your, um, clientele, is it primarily, like you just said, families, or is it small businesses? Large corporations? Like what is your company? We have from large corporations right down to a small business. And as our clients and we have some we have some family clients, but we are not a for example, we're not a retail financial planning firm that deals with the investor directly. Uh, the retail financial planning firm is our client who uses our software technology. They're our ideas to help their clients more. And you're not selling annuities or. Not. We don't sell any financial product. We are selling human behavioral information about how people behave. That's the only thing we do. And I didn't have originally, I had a wealth management business in Australia and I was a CPA, but I don't do any of that now. I am totally on the beehive, the on the human behavior part and trying to get the human impacts through our technology and what's trying to help people through our technology. And what was that journey for you from being a CPA or I imagine that might have been your undergrad or like, Yeah. So my undergraduate degree was, as I did a commerce accounting Economics, Then I became a CPA and I did that for about ten years and I was a tech specialist. And in that in doing that, I saw how people behaved and I learned to work with that with with the different clients because in a way, taxes related to money, no one wants to pay tax, that people get emotional about it and people don't always understand it. And people get in over their heads, you know, not wanting to pay tax and trying to avoid it. It's almost like running up a big debt bill, you know, So so I got used to dealing with people, their behavior, emotions in that arena. And then I set up a wealth management business because I was sick of the corporate world and just wasn't going to work for me. I was more entrepreneurial. I was always doing something on the side, you know, in terms of investing or getting into something. So I had to make I had to make a decision one day that was self-imposed, not firm imposed. I set up the wealth management business. And again in there I started to see how people would say one thing to me in a meeting and I would go and do something else differently or behave differently when they were under pressure a few months later, or even two years later sometimes. And I thought, okay, there's something going on here that I need to understand. And a friend asked me one day, she asked me, Hugh, what are you really passionate about? And I just came out of my subconscious. I want to help people all over the world become self empowered through greater behavioral and money consciousness. Now, I had written that down like that. Been trying to come up with something like that. It just came out and I was aware enough at the age of 34 when I said that it's something needs to be done. I need to go and do something about it. So I did. And that's why, you know, 20 years later, I'm talking to you guys right. And I think that's the that's the big thing in terms of creating wealth in your life is to find something. Is it you're passionate about that you can do that you love and have the courage to go and do it and to to realize that in life there's no limitations, any limitations in your head, and you can remove that. Are you? And that's actually is that's what really creates the wealth and, you know, the relationship to money is all tied up in that too in that, you know, if you hang if you limit your life by saying, well, gee, I can't do this because, you know, I want to go and do X tomorrow or I'm worried about my savings, it won't happen. You know, you've got to unblock yourself at every T at every level and go and and have a go. And I think, yes, failure is always in anybody's head when you're doing it, but you need to think, well, the journey is going to take me somewhere, somewhere and I'm going to learn from it and I'm going to grow. And that's why I came to America, because I knew not only because I could get the scientific validation for what I came up. The idea I had was also the way of thinking in this country is more accepting that, you know, if you fail, screw up with something, you've got to move. You can move on to another place and grow and excel. Whereas in somewhere like Australia, it's a lot more negative in that sense. You know, if something doesn't, if one venture doesn't work out, you're basically written off really well. It's not the same mentality as maybe in this country for taking a risk and having a go. And so that's why I'm here. Uh, you know, one of the big reasons why I'm here, well. Entrepreneurial wise, I'm assuming I don't really know the statistics, but I'm assuming that a lot more businesses fail than than make a success or they make a very minor success. Most of them. Yeah. So a huge for businesses failing. And I suppose one of the good things is I never researched any of that when I went to to start my business because if I, if I looked at the statistics and if I knew how hard it was going to be, I may not have done it. You know, it's easy to sit here and say to you guys, Yes, I would write, but I may not have. I think that what I did do in Sydney, Australia, in Sydney, Australia, is I looked at myself and how I was wired and what my resilience levels were. And I knew that I was very much on the end of the spectrum where I if it that I would be able to handle it emotionally. And so I said, okay, I'll get on the journey, I'll risk everything I've got and go and find out. And, and I think that's a lot of what I call an ex, what I call today having an exponential growth mindset. You know, you can go in life with a linear progression and a few percent on each year, or you decide to make a quantum leap somewhere. And that's what Hugh does. You need to know when to hold and when, when to fold. I mean, you can't Yeah, you know, you can put good money after bad to. Now you've got to be very careful with that. And you've got to you can have a big dream, but it doesn't mean you stop big. I actually think you start small and you've got to be in there for the long term. And yes, you've got to be very careful. You've got to know when to speed it up, when to slow it down. You got to know when things are running in your favor. You've got to know. I think, which people to back along the way, whether that's an employee or community groups that you become part of with the right energy, it's you know knowing how to build those relationships and with who is really important to to to to success. And it doesn't always you know, people look at sort of the success or success overnight stories. It doesn't always happen that way. You can be 20 years in the making and suddenly within a two year period you make that leap. Everybody's different. Every business is different. Timing. It's not all in it. You know, you can you can, you can have a product ahead of your time. I think sometimes you've got to wait it out. There's a lot of factors involved, but you've got to you've got to be mentally strong. Yeah, there's no doubt about that. I'm that's really cool stuff. Um, do you, um, I, I Yeah, lots of comments and questions. Uh, really, I guess the thing is this thinking in my head the most when you're saying like, money being a part of your whole being. But, and I want to get, I definitely want to get to that, but I really like how you're going at dealing with money in general. And I'll say I'm one of the biggest like haters of capitalism or money and blah, blah, blah, blah. But I really enjoy what you're doing with this when you're really sounds like you're focusing on how humans behave with with money, not so much. That money is a it's really like how you've noticed, like, I don't know, just how we behave with it, how we like, cut corners. Ah, I try to like, uh, you know, do, do these normal things. So I like looking at it like that when it's like, yeah, just to see what you can do. What else I thought was cool. Also, like, tell me if I'm wrong here though too is like, so well, your website would help people understand, understand what's the appropriate risk by understanding their behavior. Because if they have your behavior or understand of your your behavior with money and understanding of it, then it is worth then maybe I'm assuming that your coaches and stuff would be like you should take the risk. But if someone behavior is different with money, you would coach them and in a different way. Is that kind of like what you're doing? I that's that's absolutely right. And we did a research study that six years ago on 500 very successful entrepreneurs at varying levels. And there's very five very common traits. Phines, and you know, you need to fall in within those if you're going to go and start a business from scratch and and go for it for the long term. But that's the behaviors. You also need to have a very deep passion and a purpose for it. Um, now if you don't have those behaviors and you certainly you might have the idea you need to find a partner to go with you on the journey that that would have that have that style to make up what you don't have. But, but generally you're what everything you just said is right. You've got to be wide for it. I knew I was wired to do it. It's a matter of then do I want to do it and do I want to climb to the top? And you know, you've you can get close sometimes and then you have to stop and then you've got to sort of figure out another way around the another way up the mountain and go and do it. Yeah. And that's, that's, that's part of it. You got to be. How about. A cell phone kind. Of thing too? How about cell phone cases out of kangaroo skin? Is that or are you passionate about it, Grandpa? I don't know. It's not one that I would. I would. Try and and not really. No, no. But someone once presented the idea to me. Yeah. I think you've got to be deeply passionate about it. It's not it. It's a passion for a cause. It's not just the solution. If does that make sense? So my course is money consciousness, you know, and in a way, I've always, since I was a little boy, wanted to understand money. And it wasn't always about just investing it. I think it's it is what can be done with it. It's what I'm interested in and how it impacts people's lives and makes them better. I think it should be real knowledgeable about what you're getting into, real knowledgeable about. You know, if you're going to be in the music business, you should be real knowledgeable about what you're doing, the tech technology or whatever you need to know. And knowledgeable about the market that you're going to. Not to be so much of a killjoy, but they just got it wrong. Thinking about this and writing those who have me thinking about like when I when you guys are talking about the debt and the gold, you know, and all that stuff and how deep in debt we are and all this, all this other days and understanding what money is in general, which I was like, I really don't understand what money is it. It really makes me think of the global crises like climate change, where this is like, I know we're deep and I know we're deep in some shit. I just don't know what's going on. Um, do you find that that is a behavioral thing? Because it seems like with, like money with me, it's like I, I ah, I don't know if I'm the only person, but I'm. I would think that the existential dread of this thing is bigger than me. We're same doom type of thing. Do you find that as a as a a normal behavior or that just, uh, meet? No. Uh, no. I think that it's it's a, it's a normal behavior. And we all have we all have doses of that. And I think it's part of being curious, maybe being a bit skeptical and you're being a little bit honest and having a look behind or underneath the hood of what's going on and asking questions, whereas others don't do that. So I don't think there's anything abnormal about, Phines, what you just said. I think that's quite normal. Um, if that now each of us as humans might worry about some of these issues differently, you know, than others, I, I don't lie awake worrying about climate change, but I think it's a big issue, definitely. And it may be a lot more than I think it is. I mean, I think it is an enormous issue. I think there are other issues that come with it, too. Um. Yeah, I mean, but I like what you said earlier too. I think when Grandpa was giving you like his, um, like the king or, um, all the business that they owned, I, I think, though it's like sometimes the ignorance of it all is kind of good too. But I, I say that too, because then you go back to this question of but then you try to teach people about money and to understand money. Would me understanding money make sense? Is it better if I just go in there going like I'm a make it in in this? And I think money's money is a different topic because it it is it's an energy field that's directly in your life. And I would argue it's as much in your life as food exercise, your mental condition, which are your primary energy sources and money. There's a lot of research on it now is the number one cause of stress. And stress is what causes us to to age quicker, which brings on disease. So if you think of it like that, money is a major direct cause on our on our being as a as a human. And therefore, I would encourage everybody to learn about it that doesn't mean that you have to go and make tons of it. You don't need tons of money to be happy. You need enough to be happy in his research studies on that from the World Happiness Institute. But you don't need any more than that. And I think it gets in, you know, people who make a lot of money. I know a lot of entrepreneurs who make quite a lot of money, and then they're worried about comparing themselves to their friend next door and what cars, if you got what houses and what not. And I think people forget the basics of life and you don't need all that shit to be happy. You can you can. I would say that I had a lot of things when I was in Australia at a young age and I came to America and I didn't have all those things and I let that have led a far simpler life and I've been far happier with having less shit, basically. And I don't worry about what somebody else has, and I don't go telling anybody else what I have. I just worry about how I can impact other people. Um, you know, and it's being sensible within that. I've got to feed a family and all those things as well. But I think everyone. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. No, you go ahead. I'm sorry. I was just going to say this is this is what the DNA behavior gqom is is about, essentially to understand that. Okay, now you're tiny. I'm my big question with the very beginning of it. With what energy and money. And now I'm starting to see a better, clearer picture of what you're saying. And yeah, and so it's tied in to stress, happiness, success and the key is your identity and what gives you meaning in life When you have those things sorted out, You can build the right relationship to money about what role money's going to play in your life. And it's not that hard when you've done that. And to think that money is going to solve all your problems. Everyone, everyone has problems while rich or poor and so, you know, I've known people that are pretty well to do people and didn't know how many how many problems they had. Personal could be health. It could be many things, family issues, whatever. So, yeah. And you know, you look at you know, I'm around probably a lot of entrepreneurs particularly and people people look at the other guy or girl across across the way and I think, gee, how lucky they are. And they've done so well and they've got so much money. But then you don't know the misery that's there for them or their spouse or they've got a child with some problem, you know, because they weren't around as parents or whatever it is. It's the people just judging them all the time. You know, there's there's a million things and and so therefore, at that level, money doesn't make you happy, but having enough of it to feed yourself and have some life experiences, that's, you know, and that's a balance. You know, you want to have your life in equilibrium at the end of the day, so you need enough money for that. But otherwise, beyond that, you don't. That's really the challenge for people is to get what that to get that right and understand that. What say you, Brandon. Well I have a lot one is I was just thinking about your series of small businesses Grandpa grandpa, pretzel cone and all all different kinds of businesses in his life. I was curious you, especially with your two different perspectives of Australia and then the US, your views on capitalism. There was one other thing I was thinking about. Oh yeah, just because it a generational podcast. Like I feel like a lot of millennials or even maybe Gen Z, we always have a joke of like, Oh yeah, you know, like what? When in the eighties, you know, you could buy a house for $10 and on minimum wage you could have three cars and feed all the kids, all that kind of stuff. So I do want to get into sort of that generational gap there, too, but I just threw a lot at you. Let's start with grandpa. You had a lot of small businesses. Yeah. And I've been successful and in one or two and and not successful and one or two. So I've had both experiences and I think you really have to keep your eyes open and realize when you know, when you don't want to, when you have to fall, when you stop supporting a business financially and with your with your mind, or when you think that you know, you should keep trying to to make it. I've done very well in one or two businesses and not so well another. So, you know. Yeah, and that's a very hard decision to make. I think. Right. Very hard decision to make. But I guess we all depend on other people. And if you're running a business or whatever, a lot has to do with having the right employees as well. Yes, very important. And I've been lucky with with the DNA behavior business. I've got people that have been there with me from the start. Some others have been there ten, 12 years. And even the you know, the support teams have been there a long time, too. So I'm lucky that I've got a lot of stability in that sense around me. Hugh, what, uh, what made you decide to move to the to the states? I think it was twofold. One, it was it was what I was saying before in terms of the attitudes in this country and the culture towards work. Entrepreneurship means it's a much more open country in that sense. So I always knew that if I had the right thing and worked hard, played the game the right way, that I would succeed here and I would be fulfilled. Secondly, uh, when that was first, I knew I knew that I was going to probably come to America at some point in my life, quite a way ahead of when I started to and, and then secondly, when the idea came up around human behavior and I hired a organizational psychologist to work in my wealth management business to help me with it, she pointed me to, uh, people here in Atlanta that would be able to help me with, with the development of the systems, the what we would call the psychometrics or the science, just to keep it simple, to put the rigor into it, to prove it. And so I came over 40 times in four years. Wow. Okay, that's expensive. Work with them to oversee it. And then I really went I, I bought a house in Dunwoody here, in, in, in, in Atlanta. And I and I sort of put down some roots and stayed basically. I don't and I, you know, eventually got married, got my wife and kids and yeah, I'm here. I'm a citizen, too. You've been here, you say 20 years. Yeah, that's journey started 20 years ago, but the full on living is probably 1617 years of it. But right. With a lot of commuting in the middle. I lived in in Atlanta and that's great city. I think it's a very as far as America goes, it's a very good living city. Yes, it is. Yes. Um, I decide personal question before I get into some of the like the aha moments I to get into. But how's your family? Uh, think about you coming over here, doing your doing what you're doing. Is it, is it pretty, Um, the, the good part. Um, I think that my mother is is entrepreneurial in her own right, and she was from England and went to Australia when she married my father. So while she would rather I was in Sydney, I think any mother would, she gets why I'm here and it, I'm doing something, I'm doing something good in the world. And I think, you know, she's she's proud of that. So that's good. And we've had, you know, fairly good contact because she she, until recently on top up to COVID, would come over to America to see us. So we would meet us somewhere this year. And we're going down to Australia this year. The family we all got, we're going down to Sydney because she's 92 now and it's not as easy for her to travel. Um, so, so from from that perspective, she's fine. I've got a younger brother. I don't, I think, I don't, I don't think John's totally always understood all of what I do or why I do it. Did I need to? I think he's queried. Did I, you know, would a query did I need to come to America and do this? No, I didn't need to do it at all. I did need to do it in the sense of I didn't need to do it financially, but I needed to do it for myself to evolve as a human being and to to realize my fullest potential, whatever that is. And that would not have happened in Australia. And that was a driver of me coming here. I would not have happened. Kind of off the subject a little, but Brandon's great grandfather always talked about moving and he was very successful, but he always talked about moving to Australia. He wanted to move to Australia. Well, you can't blame anyone for wanting to move there because the, the climate's good, everything's there. It's, you know, it's a it's a pretty it's a friendly place in its own right from a lifestyle point of view. And they, they've come out, I do some recording music recording and there there's equipment companies in Australia that are making terrific equipment. Australia has a lot of very good innovation in a lot of areas. Um, so yeah, there's a lot of good things that come out of there, including me. But Brandon, you had some heavy hitting questions or something. Yeah. Do you want to get start on the first one? I guess the second. Am I a capitalist? Yeah. Yeah. You're our theme. Yes, but. No, I am. I am a capitalist. I don't necessarily want to go down the the politics path because I think that I don't think the listeners need need to hear that for us to get polarizing. Um, and I don't know, I fully understand all the politics in America because there it, and it's far more than economic I think and when you get to that. But generally speaking, yes, I am a capitalist I guess, but but not a not a socially unconscious one, though, if that makes sense. I think I'm a better or more fair way to phrase. The question is a lot of what you do is about the behavior money, right. And so I'm curious like where sort of when you're having these conversations or in the psychology, like where this sort of generational wealth fits in and sort of the, the, um, systematic trauma in like the emotions in relationship to that money, you know, how you, how you go about that in your business. So we, we do do quite a lot of work within families about, you know, let's say mum or dad have inherited a lot of money or made a lot of money and it's now going to be passed on in working with then mum and Dad about what are they going to do with it. And I think the big issue is the impact that on the children. The children didn't get born choosing to have that money and in actual fact I think it's a big burden on a lot of them, you know, to inherit money or to know you're going to inherit money creates a lot of expectations in how you're supposed to behave, shape up in the world. And not everybody's cut out for that. And I actually think there's a lot of people out there, if they were really honest with themselves who are inheritors or going to be inheritors, many would rather not have it. Um, it's easy to say, Oh yeah, I want, I want to, I want to get millions of dollars. Uh, so I don't have go to work. But for a lot of people that's also crippling mentally, um, and is quite problematic because they don't know what to do with it. So, you know, the intergenerational issues are huge in, in, in how the money is dealt with. You know, I certainly think it's great if kids can get an education because their parents have got the money to help them with it. I mean, I don't think in this country you want to be saddled with student debt, you know, So I think there there are things that money's got a really good purpose for and can be handled well in the family. But there are kids out there that just don't go that that are sort of in a way, it's a life punishment or if not now. Now, I've often talked about it's a get up. You're a prisoner. You're a prisoner to the money. It's like the old wives tale of, um, like 90% of lottery winners lose it all in, like, five years or something like that, right? Yep. Because they don't know what to do with it. And they have an emotional rush and they go and spend it and they don't have any purpose and they go and buy a boat, an expensive house and do some deals and bang, it's all gone. And it's the same. I know some very smart people that have small businesses and made a lot of money it and to mating within three years they've lost half of it. Yeah. You know, Rich dad Poor dad that book. Yeah. Is that are those philosophies that I guess your business subscribes to is sort of like money is there as an investment, not as, you know, like all that kind of stuff. Yeah. I subscribed, you know, to, to all of that. I think money probably more and more than that. I think money is there for life experiences. But I think the most important thing you've got to find is what is going to create meaning for you in your life and the money and what you do with the money after that is is not such a hard thing to to figure out. Yeah. Well, you know, it's been in the news a lot to bill and and Melinda Gates. Melinda Gates has said that they're not going to give a lot of their money to their children. They're going to give it mostly to charity. If they're being genuine, who knows? You know, But but yeah. And then, you know, it's like that. And a number of entrepreneurs are like that. I think it's good if there's a family conversation around it, though. I think that one of the if it's just a unilateral decision of the parents, yes, it's their money. They can do what they like with it, technically speaking, but they are impacting their kids with it. So I believe in having a family conversation about what that decision will be and everybody buy into that is important. Yeah, but, you know, Trump inherited a lot of money and look how great he's done. Yeah, I'm not being serious. Yeah, well, that one's a can of worms, isn't it? What about. And what about the, um, generational question that I had about sort of finance and I or a lot of people my age, we joke about how easy it was to, you know, in the eighties, you could make minimum wage and spend$10 on a house and it's just not the same. You know, it's not the same economic landscape. And, you know, um, I feel like my generation a lot feels like they got pretty screwed in that regard. Yeah, because everything is more expensive. So, you know, to own a house, you are going to have to get a genuine job and it's not easy. I think the same sits there in Australia. To buy to buy a home is near impossible for kids without some parental support. Um, and I think that those issues are here in this country. It probably depends on which city you live in as well. Atlanta probably is not out of reach yet. Um, San Francisco, New York or anywhere in the Northeast. California is pretty much out of reach without without, without the help. So you're right. And you then become a prison and a prison into debt and, um, you start making choices, you know, you're in the debt trap and stop making choices for your life that don't really make you happy. That's the problem. Because because of the mortgage and all that stuff. Yeah, because of the mortgage. I think the job market is different to now to Brandon. You know, in the 1980s, you could start a job and be in the same company, probably almost for life, certainly in the seventies sixties that was true eighties probably. Nowadays it's not like that. And so that's the job security is not the same. Uh, you've got to be far more flexible and nimble of what you will accept. So the world, the world, the world is different. But also I would say the other flipside of it is that a lot of kids today have grown up with a lot of with a lot more things given to them, a lot more toys available. Some would say I'm not saying every kid, but quite a lot have been spoiled and haven't had to go and earn it. You know, will be made to work as hard. You know, I think that when I got a job first, got a job in 1996, I was very careful how I behaved at work. I worked very hard because you couldn't you couldn't really afford to get fired. Whereas today, you know, up until recently it's been an employee market, don't like the environment. You got to go next door and get a job. Um, but there's a lot more things to spend money on today, you know? Yeah. I mean, I will say in fairness to that point, that the, the access to information is probably a lot easier, right? Like, you can get an entire college education on YouTube and it's probably a lot better than some places. Yeah. Far more choices. And um and I think that a lot of people will find entrepreneurship of some level will be their life and career or the gig economy. You know you get yourself trained up with some skills, some things you like and you'll work flexi time and you'll do projects. Yeah. But I would, I would. And frankly, that's not a bad life. I'm sure it's. But again, it's a mindset that what you want to do. I think it's not a bad life for people. I think a lot of retirees who've had a corporate job will need to go and do that, too. You know, I think we're all going to live longer. And what are you going to do? Do nothing for 70 years? I don't think so. And the problem is that the people probably that need help the most are going to be the ones that aren't even going to be aware of, you know, the things that you're teaching. So, you know, I mean, I'm assuming and maybe I'm wrong, that 100 years ago or a thousand years ago, there were the rich and the poor, and it'll be the same way 100 or a thousand years from now. It's just people that are going to get ahead. What you're thinking about, you know, Phines. Yeah, I, I think that there's some level of this conversation that's quite high level and it's perhaps for the it's perhaps for the very educated. I get that. But I've got people out there, you know, in our in our business ecosystem who are who are part of our company, who are out there teaching kids families and in schools, uh, you know, in minority environments, these principals. So we are starting to get it down, but it's going to take a lot of years. Yes, but, but, but, but we're working on it. I think that's the challenge. That's the mountain to be to be conquered. Um. And the media portrays like, you know, the big, big successes of people and it gives them like un not a realistic view on on on life in some respects. Yeah you know the superstar athlete or the super entertainer or whatever and you know that makes $100 million. And, you know, they don't really get a realistic view of of what life. Is, not the media is a big problem. Yeah, absolutely. So tell me this. Maybe it's an unfair question for me to ask. What is the view of a person like yourself from Australia? You may not want to answer this because you're a U.S. citizen now coming from Australia, but of our situation the US regarding with China. Yeah, it's, uh, I think it's, I think it's problematic. I think the world's going, is going it's going to lead to some higher level of isolationism. I think we went through a generation where the world was extremely interconnected for everything. You know, an idea could be generated in America, it could be made in China, back sold. Uh, China has some very valuable resources. It might be needed for the future for a lot of tech products. So China has a lot of control in many ways, but I don't know that America can put all of its, uh, eggs in that basket or anybody can. But, you know, China is now a very powerful country and and America is not is not the strength it was in. So can't just call the shots. So we have a different equilibrium. Um, and China, Japan and India also make for interesting cases to to understand here as well. You know Japan is even though its economy has been flat for a while, Eddie, they've got their tentacles everywhere. And now India, you know, is the most populous country in the world. It's quite well-developed. It's got a good legal, legal system which does help business. And it's growing a lot, you know. And so I think that the the dynamics are very different and Europe is in decline and certainly England is well. It seems to me that that Americans gained a lot by being able to buy products at a very, very reasonable price. Now, I understand that the US government is concerned about China developing military type things that, you know, having certain chips and whatever available to them. But aside from that I'm talking about the guy that goes into Wal-Mart or Target or whatever could buy goods that now with inflation are becoming much, much more expensive. And and so we we we we got a value of a great value for the for the dollars that that we sent over to China in terms of you know, what what the consumer could purchase and now we're making absolute enemies of them. India it appears to me maybe I'm wrong, but it looks to me like India and and Russia and who knows who else seem to be somewhat siding with China. Now, I don't know if I'm right about that, but but that's the impression that I have. So we're so we're kind of isolating ourselves from the world, except for England and Germany and Australia. Canada and, you know, we've already made enemies of most of South America and Central America, you know, so. And the only thing for America is America could America could be self-sustaining itself. It doesn't really need the rest of the world if it ever gets to that. You know, it's big enough. It's got enough resources. Is that a good thing? Not completely. But at the same time, America going and propping up a lot of countries all, uh, you know, investments and whatnot made overseas that that amount to nothing are a drain on America. And, you know, look where our education system is. You know, why, why shouldn't more be invested in that. And it's lousy. Where wait, why do we now. Invest as much in military? It could be in education, into our own industries and things here. And I think that's that's something that I think needs a lot of consideration. We're low on the totem pole in terms of health care, in terms of longevity. Yeah, we used to be at the top and now we're really down very, very low in terms of other industrialized countries. So health care, we're definitely everything I think, in this country. What is health care? Yeah. Did you say. Yeah, because the cost structure of it is just way out of line and I don't really understand how it's got there. But you know, there's some game with that with the big pharma and the insurance and the doctors medical profession that it doesn't work and it's cost too much. Um, and in the end of the day the government's got to, you know, got to pay a lot. I mean it's a big part of GDP and health issues are huge in this country. Yeah. Phines, you were going to say something a couple of minutes. I just curious what. Oh, you know me, I got. Up to that. Um, who is going this down? But, um, mainly though, I guess the big one is I think we're missing a point of what he was saying a lot of the time. Like, a lot of the questions were like, um, because we can complain about money all day, right? But. And I'm down for, I'm down to debate all day with somebody. This is coming with it. But I don't think he's coming with the, like the, the, like capitalism going here. All I think he really is the thing I'm really highlighting is it's like it's behavior. It's not the behavior of money. Money don't got no behavior. Money's intangible. It's the human that has the behavior. Right. And that's and that's I think that's what he's trying to like. Uh, it's the most and for what it is and what you're talking about, what you bring it up in this reality, this world. I really vibe with that in the sense of because I'm kind of hippie dippy with that too, which is like, um, I, I, I guess the big one that's eye opening to me. The thing that's like this hard pill for me to swallow is that money is like water or any other resource. So I like, I don't get like I kind of take things personally with money because all the blood on his hands, you know, money does this money does that race, race, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I don't think about the same thing with with water. I don't get mad at water for that. So I guess I'm trying to swallow that pool of money is in that same category of it's not something to really hold a grudge against because I got to have it to to live with. And I think that's what you're trying to say with the behavior of it. That's my aha moment of what you're coming here for, I think. I think, Phines, you've absolutely nailed it. And it's like, how do you make money? A friend, not an enemy. Yeah, yeah, I don't like money, but I can't do anything about it. Right. Um, so what you're saying is my behavior towards this thing, and. And I, again, I vibe with it, and I think that it also, I can see from just here you talk that it makes me want to understand money a little bit more, which also makes me probably understand how to change money so that I'll be educated in it. So a lot of these questions that Brandon and Grandpa have and probably myself, um, will be answered because I'll be more educated probably on it because I know it's a part like, I don't know, but I that's kind of what I'm in taking notes about is this kind of like really just I'm still having a hard time falling out. I still think that money is something that humans made and but it doesn't matter if we made it because he is so entrenched in everything that we do. And I, uh, I mean, that's what I've been kind of mulling over the most is kind of like dealing with that new information. Yeah, well, you've got it, though. You've understood what I. What my big point is. Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate. I love the phrase money, energy or energy of money. Um, because I've never heard it termed like that before. And even like, reading it on the profile and stuff, I was like, Wait, what? What is that? You know, it made me ask myself, like, you know, I don't know if it's a term that you coined or what, but yeah, I feel like we don't often think about the relationship of it. It's a term I mean, there are others out there that talk about the energy of money in that, you know, that money, um, affects us. You can, you can, you can feel it. Some will talk to talk about it being in how it impacts your body. And I think the term money energy itself we have coined and I am you know I decided to address money consciousness more that's when I've got to you know the notion that there is both behavior with money in terms of your mindset and what you decide mentally to do with it. But there's also the energy of it, how it's in your thoughts and how you let it affect you and affect others. That's that's what goes with the behavior and that and the money. Energy really is, you know, it's a it's a powerful force. It's inside you that's sitting there waiting to be released in some ways, for good or for bad, you know, across all areas of your life. I think the idea is to to know how to harness it for the good of your life and the good of others lives that. But if you have negative thoughts about money, you know, and I wrote about this not long ago, if you have negative thoughts about money, you probably won't have any money or. You will lose it all. You need to have you. That's where you need to start developing positive thoughts about about money. And I'm not talking, just pray and hope it comes. I'm I'm really talking about, um, looking at it, having a positive, constructive use and role in your, in your life and your relationships and in relation to what you do and having meaning and in your life, how it can boost your identity, not drag down your identity. Then I think with all of that, it's, it can start to come in. So you're telling me that root chakra that's got the like that that's like about money. It's I read about like oh my, my, my back's that hurt because, you know, money's been an issue, a root doctrine. And reading it to it is really money the whole way from the. Ground bottom three chakras. If you want to get to it, fine. But bottom three chakras are heavily affected by money. And. And isn't it interesting how many diseases, particularly cancers, are there in the bottom three structures, chakras, and they're blocked up with stress? No, no, no, I'm. I'm making a joke. But you're also good. You're me. True. We're right. You're right. And so. So, so, so, so, so part of it. Part of addressing your money. Energy is addressing is addressing the chakras and where the energy or negative energy is being held or whether good energy is the other big one is your heart. You know, we all look at our heart as a pump, right to pump blood around our body in oxygen and whatnot. But the heart has 5000 times the power of the brain in terms of the electromagnetic forces that come off it. And more, more signals go from your heart to your brain than the other way round. So you've got to have a healthy heart. That's in fact, it's got its own brain that you need to feed with the right things if you are going to have a good mental condition and therefore mental good mental condition. About money for the heart is extremely important. And we sort of talk about it in maybe pay lip service that I will have a good heart towards that person or think about, you know, have a good attitude. But it's a lot more than that. Phines, you always seem to hit the nail on the head. You seem to be able to to understand what's going on, because I've noticed that every guest that we have on says that you really understand the subject. Probably better, much better than I do. I take notes, take notes. I'll write it down then. I'm serious about that. Yeah. Well, I found this an extremely interesting conversation with with the three of you and I. And, you know, of course, I haven't met you in person, but I would probably. Well, not probably would certainly be delighted to meet you in person some time, and we would be able to talk all day. I think. You know, you've asked very interesting, thought provoking questions and really trying to connect with people on the street, on on what are some very big issues. And this is making me work and think you know as well, because these issues are so big and we need to get to so many people. But you but you have the three of you have understood it. You mean you've asked me different questions and that's because you've had different experiences and perspectives. But I think we've we've unpacked a lot here for the people listening. It's been it's been extremely powerful. I would say, for wrapping up the the last or the the one thing that I'm really curious about is this journey like like, let's say hypothetically, I hated money or I always have a budget and I never stick to it and I have stress about it and all this stuff like what is what is the the first or the biggest tidbit of advice that you would give me to, like, start that journey? You know? So the first thing is I would change the language to make the language less stressful and perhaps called a spending plan. And I think secondly, not talk about goals, but maybe just about life desires and get those written out. So desires is a much softer word brand. And I could probably, you know, I would want to see your DNA style before I totally guessed who you are, but I think that you're a little more sensitive. And I think if we talked about it in terms of life desires and how you had a spending plan, you would you would be mentally freed up from that. But at the end of the day, you've got to have some savings and financial flexibility to put yourself in that place to be able to take advantage of opportunities. And that's the key thing. Beautiful. That was my last thought. We always do. Last thoughts on the show. Great. Yeah. Yeah, Phines. We'll go Phines, Grandpa, and then Sierra for your. And then Hugh, we would love to hear your guys's last thoughts on this. Oh, man, this is. I appreciate this. Exactly. Um, I thank you, Brandon, for for putting someone about capitalism, because I've been a I've been in a in the mud about money and capitalism for so long. So and in blessing that you were able to be the person to talk about it because I think this is a great bridge point for, you know, cause I'm going to go on bunch of different ways, you know, and I'm very, very happy and very appreciative that I got to cross paths with you and talk to you and hear you out. And thank you. Okay. Well, Phines, thank you for understanding and at a very deeper level and as well, I appreciate it a lot, Grandpa. Well, Hugh and I enjoyed meeting with you on the podcast, something that you said, I guess basically at the end, pretty much at the end of this podcast is the idea that heart the heart gives more information to the brain than the brain gives the other way around, which I've never thought about that I never knew there was such a, you know, a structure like that. But that's very interesting. Yeah, Yeah, it, it is interesting. There's a lot of science to that and I'm still unpacking it, but I know that I have changed people's lives or the trajectory of my own life or relationships from changing my heart to things. And now I put that a lot of that in perspective. More and more good things happen, and I think that would be the take away comment is to really understand your heart. That's the first place to start looking or addressing and getting yourself fit in that area, not only physically, but also the brain inside your heart. Are you talking about the physical heart or are you talking about feelings. The physical heart? Physical heart. But the feelings that go with it? Because the feelings go through the Vegas glance up to your brain, so the feelings come with it to the physical heart. Very important. The physical heart. Before the four chambers of the heart are very important to understand and manage. So we call it the heart of money eventually. Yeah, but the wallet from while if my back pocket the money to my chest. This is I just was really excited because I do this right before I even got on the show because I was waiting for Brandon to get the shit together. But I was like I said, use your energy for passion and look what we're talking about today. That's crazy. Correct? Yeah. There you go. Beautiful. Hey, Sierra, are you still there? Why do you always ask that? Like, I just wandered away from. My own path. It could be the moment you went to the bathroom. I don't know. I'm sorry. My God. I'll put it in Chad or something, man. Come on. I'm like, I just leave. The guardian. Turned on and go. Thank. Thank you for coming, Hugh. I don't really have a thought. I just have a lot to a lot to chew over. Well, that was very interesting discussion. Well, thank you, Sierra, for listening to all of it and for making the show happen. Yeah. Hugh, where can people find you and all your links all give us the whole thing? Yes. So people can find me. Come to our website, DNA behavior dot com. There's a dedicated page in there to on money energy and there's a white paper in there. There's some discovery tools you can take you can I can be found on LinkedIn. So Hugh Massey on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram I'm I'm there I don't do Twitter, but uh, uh, so I can be I can be fairly easily found Amazing. That's our show, guys. Thank you so much, Hugh. I really love this conversation. I'm so glad that you came on. And it was very different from almost all of our other podcast and like very, very helpful and positive for me. Yeah. Grandpa. I just was going to say good night, my friends. Fine. And thank you so much. Sierra Thank you so much, Grandpa, as always, I love you. We'll see you guys. Brandon Thank you. And thanks everybody. I really enjoyed it. You know. Contrasting with from Papa Rosie, always on your shoulder, this Grandpa & Chill. Grandpa & Chill is brought to you by your hosts, Brandon Fox, Bart Frank and Phines Jackson, our producer is Sierra Doss. To watch and listen to full episodes of the show and follow us on social media. Visit GrandpaAndChill.com that's grandpa a-n-d chill dot com.